Episode 72: The Land Business Isn't All Rainbows and Butterflies

Clayton Hepler (00:12)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the number one podcast in the world. The Ground Game Podcast. What's up, buddy?

Justin Piche (00:21)
Hey, that was Clay, your co-host, and this is Justin, your other co-host. And I guess we're channeling the All In podcast where Jason Calacanis always says, welcome to the number one podcast, even though they're not, but they're pretty close, pretty good podcast.

Clayton Hepler (00:36)
Dude, they have a killer podcast, yeah. They have a killer podcast. What's going on, man? What's new with you?

Justin Piche (00:42)
Let's see here. Mabel is five weeks old. So we are five weeks with four kids. It's going good. It's going all right. She doesn't like to sleep without touching someone. So I've done a lot. It was actually funny. Yesterday I was on my weekly meeting with my partners for the fun stuff then and Trey. And my wife had to run and pick up my daughter at school.

Clayton Hepler (00:46)
Let's go.

Justin Piche (01:08)
She's like 25 minute drive from our house and she was taking the two middle children and the baby wouldn't sleep. And she's like, can you wear her? So we have all these soli wraps. You know what a soli wrap is?

Clayton Hepler (01:20)
I think I know what it is.

Justin Piche (01:21)
It's

like that soft, really soft fabric, just like this long wrap. It's maybe like 18 inches wide. You just like wrap it in a certain way. So I was carrying it, holding my baby, you know, she was sleeping on me. And I zoom into this meeting and my partner Trey is like, man, don't ever let any of our investors see you like that. And I know he was joking a little bit, but it was pretty, it was funny. It was a little funny, but I mean, it's a different world today, you know?

You know, 30 years ago, maybe men didn't hold their babies as much. I don't know, but today, we do.

We've had a good kick up of sales, which has been nice. You know, there's so many things that you learn in this business that you just like don't know until you experience it. And I feel like now with having been been doing land flipping land development for almost five years, I often get to a place where I think I've seen it all.

Like I've seen this, seen everything before. I know what to expect. I can anticipate the issues, the errors. And one of the things we're now, we've had to deal with like a bunch of times is wrong deeds when we purchase a development property and having to go and not catching it, like wrong legal descriptions, and then having to go back after we've already developed the property and we have, starting to sell lots and do corrective deeds. And it's,

Clayton Hepler (02:38)
Yes.

Justin Piche (02:42)
super frustrating. As you know, the deed you should be reviewing it before you close and maybe like me you have an employee that should be reviewing it before you close. But also when you purchase a property, you don't have to sign the deed. And so often when you get your closing package, the title company doesn't even include the draft deed in your closing package. They just include your settlement statement and any affidavits that you have to sign and you know, your whatever stuff that's for you.

And so oftentimes like it gets recorded, you get the docs back, you might not look at them, you you own it, you file it away on your Google Drive or wherever the heck you keep it. And it's there, it's in your inventory and then you go to sell the property and you bring its title and often your buyer wants a new title company. So you know, you bring it to their title company and then you're a couple of weeks in and boom, they hit you with a, hey, this deed isn't right. You can't actually convey it. And especially when it's a subdivide, when there's a loan involved.

Clayton Hepler (03:29)
Yes.

Justin Piche (03:35)
We've had to unravel in the past couple of months, four or five different deed errors. And they've all been deed errors from the big title companies. The Fidelitys. It's really Fidelity. Fidelity has been the biggest challenge for us. And I just had one property in Carroll, Tennessee, 58 acres, three lot split. We bought it for 154,000. I have the first track under contract for 109,000.

and each of the tracks are about the same about the same size. Yeah, so it'll be a great deal. So we're under contract. The buyer has a lender and their title company emails my sales manager is like, hey, you guys only own point four acres. I'm like, what? I have a bank loan. My title commitment has the right legal description. My mortgage has the right legal description. Everything is correct except for the deed. And this this law firm is a law firm that

Fidelity National Title outsources to called BC Law and they do this all over the country. They have a bunch of lawyers. I guess they're probably just like contract lawyers that work for this BC Law that prepares legal documents for real estate closings. Like that's all they do. This is the third time they've messed up a deed for me. This is the third time I'm having to scramble to try to get a closing to stay on time. Go back, get a corrective deed from the law firm.

then the title company has to go back to the seller to get them to sign it or do a scrivener's deed if that works in the area. And so these kind of things are just, they keep coming up and it's only recently that I've noticed it. I never really noticed this happening before. So that's been frustrating, but we're working through it. And another thing that you learned, that I've learned recently, when you use national title companies.

Which, and if you remember, we had a podcast episodes talking about this like hack of like, you could use one title company, have one point of contact. And while that's true and it's nice to have like one point of contract to go through, it's not what it actually, that's not how it works in practice. How it works in practice is you work with a national title company. They then sub out that title work to whoever the local title company is. If it's not like an e-recording search.

Clayton Hepler (05:20)
We did.

Justin Piche (05:45)
So if it's an e-recording type thing, then they have their own office of title searchers that they can source it out to and they can do your title search. They can get those deeds recorded quickly, get everything back to you. But a lot of times for land investors, we're working in rural counties and those rural counties often don't have e-recording. And when you're doing double closes in counties that don't have e-recording, you can't really actually do it.

especially if you don't have a local person there that can run to the courthouse, record the deed, get the recorder copy back, then execute the second deed. And so twice now, we've had an issue where we bought a property, we had closing scheduled for the next day or two days later, and it's been 26 days, 26 days, and we still haven't closed the B2C transaction because we're still waiting on the new title search for the B2C. So we close on this deal, this...

Clayton Hepler (06:09)
Mmm.

Yep.

Justin Piche (06:37)
$400,000 buy, $510,000 sale, pretty big double close. And we closed on it on March 27th. And then we, the title company, who's not local, had to mail the deed off to the county to get recorded. It took two weeks for the county to record the deed. And then they sent it back, or a week and a half, whatever, they sent it back to the title company. Then the title company took that deed, sent a new title search to their out of county researcher who had to go travel back to that county.

do a full new title search, even though one single document is new on the original title search they did, but they have, because they're insuring the B2C, they have to do the full search again. And now it's been two and a half weeks and we still haven't finished our title search for our double close. That isn't even, it's not even a double close. It's like we're just buying it and flipping it in a month, but the whole delay is title. It's just funny. It's just funny when you see these things. So maybe a lesson learned for anybody who's listening.

National title companies can be good. I like Stuart right now. They've been pretty good to us, but don't use a national title company if you're doing double closes in a special. Don't use the national title company. We're doing double closes. They typically don't let you anyway. They'll let you. They'll like do it really close together, but they're going to make you fund a to be all the time. But the second is definitely don't use a out of county title company who doesn't have quick access to the county courthouse if it's an e recording county.

That's something nobody's ever told me or I've never even thought about until I'm dealing with these just crazy delays. Have you had anything like that or have you noticed that?

Clayton Hepler (08:08)
I am doing a deal literally right now that is the same exact thing, which is we bought this deal that is a subdivide and there's, it's a five lot subdivide, but the way that the parcel was like parceled out is we bought like a front lot that was like rectangular in the back lot was like a flag lot that went around the rectangular lot. But when we bought it for some reason, like it was all good. Right. and the front.

rectangular lot is now having title encumbrances that we're finding out about after we actually close on the property. Which you think that title insurance is great, but the problem is title insurance doesn't give you profit. Right, it just insures up to, in most cases, up to the property, the amount that you purchased the property for. So it's not actually helpful. Because we're not in the business to like buy these things and get paid back a year later. Right, the same amount that we paid for it. And so it's...

Justin Piche (08:41)
Gosh.

Yeah.

Clayton Hepler (09:00)
We have a deal that it's a subdivide. It's a five parcel subdivide. We've sold the first two parcels and then we're selling the next three and it's killing the deal because not killing it will work through it, but it was a county like a title company in rural Alabama. They didn't see it. This is like the second time this year this has happened to me too. It's incredibly frustrated.

Justin Piche (09:22)
So filing a title,

are you actually having to file a title claim to like recoup money type of thing or use title to fix them to pay for fixing mistakes?

Clayton Hepler (09:32)
They're gonna fix it for us.

Justin Piche (09:35)
Have you had any, I know we've talked about this briefly before. I have an update on one of my like bad title, title, title insurance policy claim things that I've had to work through. But have you had any title insurance claims that you've filed? Okay. I've had three so far that I've filed. One, I got denied because I didn't have a survey and it ended up being fine. Actually, I was able to work through it with the person who was debating me and proved to them I did in fact own my property.

Clayton Hepler (09:46)
No.

Justin Piche (10:03)
But the second one was a great subdivide in Alabama that I bought for $50,000. Turns out the person who sold it to me was one of six heirs and wasn't allowed to sell it. And so I filed a title claim, but I lost about seven grand because my title client policy only went up to my purchase price and I had done a survey. I had done a bunch of stuff to it. had, you know, so the $7,000, all the title fees, everything I had to pay while I closed it, I didn't get any of that back. Just the 50K purchase price.

And then the latest one was a large tract of is a large that we're currently in. Like, I guess there'll be litigation for I don't really know. But I bought this property that was landlocked for 60 K. The person I bought it from was married to the person who was on the tax rolls. So like this was pretty straightforward in my mind is like the person who the county has listed on the tax rolls is the wife of the person who owns it. It was selling it to me.

The title company had to do an affidavit of airship so that I get two people attest and certify that this person was the heir of his father who owned it blah blah blah. Anyway, got it it insured for the 60k bought it sat on about a year invested another 45 ish came to a road. I had to negotiate right negotiate to easements. Well now the guy who the guy who bought and then I sold it. I sold it for about 280 something thousand dollars made a good good profit on it.

Clayton Hepler (11:13)
I remember you said this one, I remember this one.

Justin Piche (11:25)
Paid the fund, funded ahead, was the investor, so the fund made a lot of money, I made a lot of money. And then the buyer invested another like 40K into making it like the perfect hunting property. He got hit by that letter that was basically a petition to expunge fraudulent deeds. And then we got process served via my registered agent. And so he filed a title claim, and then I had to file a title claim too. And my title claim was honored, and so my title company retained an attorney fidelity.

national law group retained an attorney for me and yesterday was like the response date. So I don't really know what's going on with it, but all I know is that was a successful. So I've had two successful title claims and one failure of a title claim so far.

Clayton Hepler (12:06)
Yeah.

Justin Piche (12:07)
So I would say it's worthless because most of it feels

worthless. But sometimes it's like, okay, well, you know, that's good.

Clayton Hepler (12:14)
You kinda need it too, I mean like it's kind of a necessary evil.

Excuse me. So, dude, I wanna talk about something that is really top of mind for me right now, which is the ebbs and flows of the land business. And so, we are, I got off a call, I actually had to change this time for recording today because we are in a five alarm fire right now in my organization.

Justin Piche (12:31)
Hmm.

Clayton Hepler (12:47)
because of the amount of intake and inflow that we have in our org. And we got another deal, buy for seven something 20, sell for 1.5 through the door this week. And we're just absolutely murdering on the acquisition front in our disposition. So this is interesting. So the context was two-ish months ago, two and a half months ago, something like that.

maybe three at this point. I had an acquisition manager who seemingly was doing a good job. Once you looked at the numbers, once you looked at the KPIs, once you looked at everything, wasn't doing as well as we thought he was, right? So we looked in and there was just so many misses. was, probably cost me three quarters of a million dollars, a million dollars over a period of six months. Looking back for the deals, the opportunity cost of not doing the deals, right?

He's no longer with us, whatever. And so then I actually, for a period of about four weeks, I actually came back in, because I was like, hey, what's the problem here? I came back in and I played AM, but on a very high level, because I wanted to make sure that we still had our full sales team rolling, but I wanted to play that extra AM role, right? So I came in and we were like, okay, we're up like

three, four really big

Justin Piche (14:11)
Hey guys, it's Justin interrupting your podcast. Say thanks for listening. Today, Clay and I are talking about the fact that the land business is not always rainbows and butterflies. As you scale, you deal with a ton of problems and Clay is dealing with one now and he's explaining his strategy. So it's a great listen. Hope you guys are getting some value out of this. If you can stop, set this up on auto downloads, subscribe, leave us a comment. We appreciate you. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Clayton Hepler (14:37)
So we had a constraint which is hey, we're not getting enough, technically we were not getting enough deals in our contract. It was fine, we were still doing well. And then we recently hired a acquisition manager and we also hired a funding and business development lead. So we have an acquisition manager who is a former

Wholesaler and flipper from Dallas. Very, very talented, smart guy, a true killer. Like the best AM I've ever hired. I hope he doesn't listen to this. And then my funding lead was another guy from Dallas who has a background in, he's kind of background, was a CFO for a startup. He worked in Silicon Valley for a little bit. Younger guy, very, know, much younger guy interning at a

a VC firm and he's done some stuff with $150 million industrial fund. So his background was kind of in more industrial real estate, but he's like, dude, I want to get into land. It's this asset class I'm really excited about. So we brought him on and he has just been killing it on the funding front, like just killing it. We're just getting so many opportunities on the funding front. I, well, I couldn't really anticipate this, but

We have a onslaught of opportunities right now that is like, really actually a negative for the business. We've gotten too many deals. I know it's kind of, poor me. We've gotten too many deals under contract.

Justin Piche (15:56)
No, I understand. Yeah.

And maybe to some listeners that might be like, dude, you don't have a problem. But like, I, I, I, get it. I get it. There's a limit to what your funding and dispo structure can handle. And if you have too many things moving and you can't figure out what to do with them, not only do you miss opportunity costs, you piss people off, right. And you, you, you have a really hard time deciding like what you can do, what you can't do. And it's just like, it's like a gridlock type of a thing.

Clayton Hepler (16:26)
Exactly, and we're going through that right now. Not to mention our financials are not as dialed as I'd like them to be. And so, you know, like the point of this conversation is to show people that, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. And it might be like, dude, really nice to hear, Clay, that you're getting all these deals on our contract. We've gotten some insane deals on our contract over the last two to three weeks.

but our entire organization is very stressed out. The morale is dropping. We are having, we're just everywhere. It's chaotic. It's very chaotic this week and last week. And so, it's, you know, how do you kind of manage through this? And I'll tell you what I did. Right, so, you I just got off a call with my COO and we're like, dude, what do we do here? What do we, like, how do we handle this problem?

we focus on what's the biggest constraint right now of all the things that we could do as an org. Like what do we need to focus on, right? And as a CEO, I think partially my job, and I could tell you about like how I normally structure my day to day and then how my COO works, but my job at the end of the day is when there is a chaos like this, I parachute into the department where I need to be.

and I help them get the ship back into the bay, right? And so over the next week, unfortunately I'm traveling on, I guess it's gonna be great, I'm traveling, yay. But next week I'm traveling and so it's gonna be like, it's gonna be intense over the next five days to get this back going, but I could either let my team fall by the wayside and let them figure it out.

Justin Piche (17:53)
Hahaha

Clayton Hepler (18:09)
or I can come in and support where needed and I'm not at the level of my business right now that I can just say I'm not gonna come in. Like I'm gonna come in and help out where I need to. This is an interesting thing that I'd like to hear your thoughts on. Should the CEO, I think at different levels maybe, but should the CEO come in or should he let his team figure it out?

Justin Piche (18:20)
Yeah.

That's a question. I mean, it just depends on your team, right?

I think it depends a lot on your team. If it's the first time you guys together have dealt with this type of problem, my my thought is like you need to go in and show what you want done and just like figure it out together. Once it's once it's solved and it's something like this happens again, you know, they should have the understanding of what happened last time and what y'all did and be able to move through the solution. I'm curious. Maybe like a pointy question is what are you thinking? Do you have like a thought? I mean,

My understanding, and maybe I can restate what I think the problem is. The problem is you a lot of opportunities that have come over your desk. There's probably a lot of money required in short periods of time to be able to capitalize on all these opportunities. Bank lending is probably not a viable option if it's a really sizable chunk in a really short period of time. So you're having to figure out how can you fund and work on all these deals? Do you have the capacity in your team to handle the development and the dispo of all these?

or not, like that's the problem you're working through. Is that a true characterization or is it something slightly different?

Clayton Hepler (19:35)
Correct, that's a big one. And also making sure that the due diligence timelines are honored as well as the getting valuations for brokers.

Justin Piche (19:47)
Yeah, gotta step in, right? I think it's the right move to step in.

Clayton Hepler (19:53)
Got you. So, you know, how do you do it systematically? It's like, you know, here are the lists of the X amount of things that we need to do. How do we first review this and make sure that we can prevent this from happening again, right? It's not like it's not gonna happen again, but there should be some sort of framework that we can prevent this from happening in the future, right? So you wanna use every one example, like every

opportunity like this as a learning experience. One thing that I used to mess up Justin is I would just go in, fix it and leave. Instead of saying go in, how do we fix this, build the workflow around how we fix this in the future such that the team leaves the five alarm fire in an improved way.

Justin Piche (20:42)
Yeah, it's an interesting problem. The running like the money side of it, right? Getting funding money debt to do deals. I think is an interesting problem because it's I know I've probably talked about this before, but like when I started the business, you know, you do it with your own money or you have some like family and friends that'll fund some deals for you as you build trust. Then you

You do some more deals and maybe you have some more capital to deploy and then you start getting into some bank lending. Maybe you do some hard money lending and you keep scaling that up and eventually your income kind of catches up and you can get more bank debt and then you max that out again. You go back to the hard money, the non recourse, the family and friends funding and then your income increases and you go back and get a little more bank debt. It's like this constant like teeter totter is what it feels like.

Like last year, we had a great year, 2024 rather, and 2025. We had great years. 2025 taxes aren't done. So I'm kind of like pegged at 2024 income levels for debt. And it was great because I was able to do a whole bunch of refinancing, get some lines of credit against pieces of land that I owned, get some more big land deals that I was able to personally guarantee. And then you kind of run back into a wall where it's like, okay, the banks say you've maxed things out.

You to wait for your income to come up again, to prove that it's come up again before we can get you more. But at the same time, the opportunities keep coming. the thing with a lot of small deals is you don't typically need a lot of debt to get those done. But with the big deals, you almost always do. They're always a lot more involved. And coming up with 800k or 1.5 million to buy a property is just really hard to do those deals cash. So we're running.

Clayton Hepler (22:21)
Correct.

the big thing for us now is all this debt on our balance sheet, not only from a balance sheet perspective, but a cash like monthly cash flow, how much we're paying out every month, it's getting really big. And so that is a scaling, that's a scaling problem in and of itself. And that's why people at the highest level go for raising a fund or raising capital, right? And so the capital essentially pays for the debt, let's just say.

Justin Piche (22:35)
Yeah. Yep.

Clayton Hepler (22:50)
provided you escrowed of funds over whatever the period of time that you're left, you know, buying the using to buy the debt or using to buy the asset with the debt. And that allows you to buy more deals. And that's what we're running against some of our larger deals, because a lot of our deals now are in the the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollar range. And, you know, that's getting harder and harder, you know, to to finance.

Justin Piche (23:15)
Yeah. Yep.

Clayton Hepler (23:16)
with,

you know, the amount, so, so that's why people.

and I say this to myself, but that's why you don't give up the flipping. Because if you scale through subdivides, can't actually...

Justin Piche (23:27)
Right, because it's an income revenue generator.

Clayton Hepler (23:30)
Correct.

Correct.

Justin Piche (23:31)
Yeah, mean, what you're talking about right now, right, the debt service as you scale debt, or if you structure your funding as, you know, kind of debt or guaranteed payments every so often. I mean, that's the reason why I kind of, gave up maybe a little more of the profit share to secure funding for deals that is patient, right? It's patient money. It sits with the deal until the deal pays out rather than.

having to go through like debt service for all of it. So like the fund, when it invests in a deal, it's essentially lending, They're earning interest, but the interest is not a set rate. The interest is based on a profit share percentage, right? And so when the deal pays out, there was a calculation based on an estimated sale price of how much of that profit would be paid in interest to the fund. And then when it pays out, it's all trued up and that

principal plus that profit gets paid back to the fund. But it helps on the operational cash flow because each month for the fund, I'm not paying the fund like an interest payment each month on all the property that I have that is funded by the fund. And we use that in conjunction with actual debt on the properties, right? The debt, the hard money loans that you're paying monthly interest or quarterly interest, bank loans you're paying monthly interest or quarterly interest, or maybe amortized or whatever it is. So those we do still have to

you don't have to fund as a credit monthly interest, but the fund, if it was all debt, holy moly, that would be crazy. It'd be a lot.

Clayton Hepler (25:02)
Yeah, yeah. So that's why, again, why people use funders, you know, at a certain level, right? Because then it just becomes, it does not become sustainable. And so you leverage with debt and then, but if you're 100 % financing, then you're just, like obviously you get, like I was looking at a deal, for example, we have a deal right now, it's buy for 310 and we think we're gonna sell it for about 800. I think I've talked about this deal before.

Justin Piche (25:03)
Yeah, it'd be a lot.

What a deal,

Clayton Hepler (25:27)
Yeah, it's a

murder, dude, it's killer deal. So, this deal, we're getting a portion of it with debt and then the rest is equity, personal equity. But it's...

You do two, three, four of these deals in a month and you get tapped out and then you just have to stop, right? And for guys like us, I wanna just keep going. But the problem is at this level, you need to, and I'm not saying at this level, I got a lot to learn and there's a lot that my business still, it's still not where I want it to be. there's...

There's a lot of spinning plates in the cat. That's why I was talking about financials earlier because knowing if I'm I paying a hundred K in debt service every month, probably pretty soon, like probably pretty soon. Uh, and so, you know, what do I need to just do pure equity for all my deals for a period of time, even though I'm giving up a percentage of a large percentage of my upside. Um, but that's all the things that I have to think about because I also don't want to be in a position where

I'm personally guaranteeing $100,000 a month in debt service, which is

Justin Piche (26:39)
Yeah. And plus you probably

can't, you know what mean? Like I don't think the bank will let us until you get the history of income to guarantee that much. It's tough. You know, once...

Clayton Hepler (26:49)
For

a hard, I do not have that net worth. I'm talking about for a hard money guy, hard money people.

Justin Piche (26:55)
Yeah, Hard money has generally been a little bit less. They're typically a little bit less. Although I got a hard money loan recently for a house on 35 acres, mostly a land play, but there's a house there. And so I was able to go to kind of a hard money lender that does houses. So he was able to rationalize the deal. A lot of land people don't want to do that. But the house guy was willing to do it. And it's a great deal. We did 300k purchase, 200k hard money loan.

two points up front, 1 % a month type of a deal. the paper, on paper, it works really well. We're working through it. But he actually, he required full personal guarantees. It was very professional hard money lender, very much like a bank, but just a little more flexible. And then I've done hard money that's non-recourse. It's just backed by the asset. I mean, non-recourse is great, obviously, because you're not personally guaranteeing that debt. And so...

It's all based on the project, your experience, and the asset, it's much harder to much harder to get non-recourse

Clayton Hepler (27:59)
Yeah, especially the plan.

Yeah, so this podcast was meant to be a short summary of what's going on and how do you solve these bigger problems. And I think that it becomes more of a... There's a cost of capital and there's also a cost of sleep. Are you willing to give up more of the upside?

to get a better sleep and I'm kind of at that level right now. I'm almost at the uncle level because I want to make sure that, Right, like you don't have to eat, right? Right. So, you know, we're going to keep buying quality land deals in quality areas, but make sure that we're doing the right thing for not only ourselves, but also for the other investors who entrust in us.

Justin Piche (28:27)
You

No, I do, I get it. I really do. I get it completely.

Clayton Hepler (28:46)
you know, because the guy that lent me money or doing a deal with me three months ago, you know, I don't want to be in a financial position that I'm taking on too many projects and I can't satisfy that, right? So that's just that you have to be considering that. so we're building out sophisticated 13 week cash flow forecasts and looking at, you know, how much we have to raise and

Justin Piche (28:59)
100 percent.

Clayton Hepler (29:10)
doing some really cool stuff with Claude with that. And yeah, man, it's been pretty cool. But that's what I got.

Justin Piche (29:16)
That is really, ⁓

You know, one thing I was thinking on this pipeline of big deals, I mean, it's probably similar to raising equity as, it would be similar to raising equity and controlling the deal. But if there's multifaceted problem, which is money, debt, equity, and capacity, right? Teams capacity to manage due diligence and get the deal done, JV is another option.

And I know you have a lot of good operators in your network through your coaching program. But there's operators out there, me included, that may have capacity to do other deals, especially if they're bigger ones. But that could be a good option too for your business. If you get like a killer deal that's like, dude, I don't have the bandwidth to get a $3 million loan, but I want some upside, that could be another good option.

Clayton Hepler (30:02)
That's definitely not off the table for me, right? I think at every level, you'd rather have a small slice of a watermelon than nothing, right? So that's the way I look at it.

Justin Piche (30:10)
Yeah, that a grape or whatever, yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. That's a good point.

Clayton Hepler (30:17)
Cool man, well think this is a great, just high level overview of what's going on in our lives. yeah guys, we appreciate you always listening to the Grand Gay Podcast. And at the end of the podcast, as you know, the last thing we always ask for you is to leave a comment down below. Let us know that you're still listening to the podcast, that we still have listeners. We know that you guys are out there and we appreciate you guys tuning in every other week at this point. Right.

Justin Piche (30:40)
Yeah.

Clayton Hepler (30:42)
Just anything to add buddy?

Justin Piche (30:43)
No, no, no, no. Yeah, obviously we acknowledge we're not as consistent weekly, but we are committed to keep putting out an episode. for those folks who come back, we appreciate it. We always want to talk about issues that are real problems we're working through, advice for how to work through them as you scale. We really appreciate your feedback. So that's all I got. We'll see you guys next week or the week after.

Clayton Hepler (31:02)
haha